Precise1 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 As it says... Calmini came through with some long promised help but not a complete kit. Thats fine, but I think I can use what they offer. http://www.purenissan.com/new_page_2.htm The goal here is not to build a monster Pathy, but regain a front end with integrity as my geometry is bad since I mashed the front end, and even if it could be fixed, the price for a stock front end would be 50-75% at least of SAS, so here we go. I'm still leaning towards the leaf spring option as it seems the most simple and this will remain a daily driver, not a rock crawler. $ does matter... I'm currently looking for a local shop that can do the work and that I can work with, at least fabbing parts and monitoring the progress. I'll update things when it happens. I think I have found a good source for the front axle thats relatively local (2 hours away), but I haven't priced things yet; that kind of scares me, but I'd rather go with a new one than a junker. Again, updates when aplicable. http://home.foothilloffroad.com/fod44faxle.jsp Information is appreciated, be it personal experience or links as I'm a newbie to the whole SAS thing and would like to learn as much as possible before laying out the money !! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I can get a Waggy D44 for $150 if I pull it myself. That's about the price range you're looking at for most places that don't rip people off... Should be fun! After that you'll be able to go wherever you want in 4WD with no fear of breaking the front end to bits, even if you stick to stock height. That said, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF?!? You can't SAS your Pathy and leave it stock height!!!!!1 hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earth1 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hey B- Packman5280 is doing a swap with leafs and there is talk of a couple other guys in Colorado that may be doing some SAS soon too. He has started a topic on it at NOR: nissan wheelers of colorado/NOR There should be some good info on his project soon. Hope it helps, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookie Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 One thing about pulling your own D44 is it gives you the experience of tearing it down and then rebuilding it (which is fairly inexpensive). Gives you great practice in case you have to do a repair on the trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Yeah 88, having a dependable front end will be nice !! I figure SAS'ing it will add a few inches of height... Good points both you and Mookie, maybe I should find one locally pull it myself and rebuild it, it certainly would be a lot cheaper. Unfortunately, I have no garage, but maybe I can borrow a buddies... Thanks for the tip Earth1, thats exactly the kind of thing I'm fishing for !! Hopefully I can get it togeher by summer. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 You are keeping in mind the SAS will compromise your ride and tire life, right? Or maybe not, depending how screwed up your front end is now... But being the engineer, I feel an onus to let people in on all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC88Pathy Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I can understand the difference in ride MWS but reduced tire life? Seems to me if he gets all the suspension geometries correct and everything is properly aligned tire life shouldn't be too different. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 cool. good luck B. that's exciting man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madhatter_xe Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 You are keeping in mind the SAS will compromise your ride and tire life, right? yeah, i'd like to know more about this too. Driving without your wheel alignment of whack seems like it'd be a good thing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I can understand the difference in ride MWS but reduced tire life? Seems to me if he gets all the suspension geometries correct and everything is properly aligned tire life shouldn't be too different. :confused: By design, solid axles (SA) will not allow much, if any, variable camber during cornering, and variation of toe in is not as accurate. Properly designed independent suspensions (IS) allow more accurate variations in camber, caster, and toe in during cornering - which reduces tire dragging in corners. What you want during cornering is to have the camber increase on the outer wheel (top lean in) to compensate for the side loading and tire carcass deflection so the load is distributed across the entire tread. And you want the inner tire to actually turn sharper than the outer tire (increase toe OUT) since it needs to travel in a smaller radius circle. When going around corners with a SA front, the outer tire overloads the outside edge of the tread blocks (due to insufficient camber) while the inner tread blocks of the inner tire gets scuffed along (less than optimal variable toe when turning). Not much of much of a problem off road or when driving in relatively straight line, but if you look at the front tires on any front SA'd vehicle driven regularly on aspalt, the inner and outer edges of the front tires wear away faster than on a comparable IFS using the same tire. And the more turns taken, the more extreme the difference. Ford's twin I beam is a little better, but still inferior to IS. That's why they are completely obsolete on anything but: - 4x4's with cost constraints. Making a long travel IS is expensive (see H1) and/or very wide (again, see H1) - Long haul trucks (18 wheelers) that don't corner much or very hard. - The rear of some automobiles. Again, only because they are cheaper to build and the manufacturers are hoping consumers are willing to accept inferior products to save a few bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I have this fantasy of building a fully independent rock crawler with about 24" to 36" of travel and active suspension at all four corners.... I have the concept pretty well flushed out in my mind. Although it would be outrageously complex to engineer and rather expensive to build, it would absolutely re-define the activity and blow everything else away. The down side is that it would require all rock crawlers to follow suit to be competitive, which would mean anybody with less than a few hundred thousand dollars or their own engineers and machine shop would not be able to compete, potentially killing the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Interesting read MWS -- But with a SAS properly aligned and assuming B rotates his tires ( ) How much of a shorter life are we looking at on set of tires? And B -- Your long term plan doesn't have the pathy as a daily driver does it? I remeber you saying something about moving closer to work so you could take the cabrio on a day to day basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Interesting read MWS -- But with a SAS properly aligned and assuming B rotates his tires ( ) How much of a shorter life are we looking at on set of tires? And B -- Your long term plan doesn't have the pathy as a daily driver does it? I remeber you saying something about moving closer to work so you could take the cabrio on a day to day basis. Good questions. The answer is: It depends! As you can imagine, it all depends on how often you need to turn, and how hard you're cornering. On an 18 wheeler cruising freeways, probably less than a percent or two reduction in life. If you drive curvy roads in a spirited way, cutting tread life in half (or even more extreme) would be quite easy to do. But if almost all cornering is in low traction conditions (dirt, snow, etc), it reduces wear. So depending on what you want, the trade offs may be insignificant. My goal is to educate everyone to allow them to make good decisions for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookie Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I have this fantasy of building a fully independent rock crawler with about 24" to 36" of travel and active suspension at all four corners.... I have the concept pretty well flushed out in my mind. Although it would be outrageously complex to engineer and rather expensive to build, it would absolutely re-define the activity and blow everything else away. The down side is that it would require all rock crawlers to follow suit to be competitive, which would mean anybody with less than a few hundred thousand dollars or their own engineers and machine shop would not be able to compete, potentially killing the sport. MWS, you must have seen Walkers Evans IFS Rock Crawler eh? It was a beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Not yet.. but gonna have to check it out! Got any links? Last key to the ultimate crawler: NO driveshafts or differentials. Can you say hydraulic drive? With computerized traction control? Thought you could... And then, just for giggles, how about a little 50 pound turbine engine screaming at 120K rpm or so to power the hydraulic pump? That should cause the Heep boys to drop a deposit in their shorts, ehh? Or is that going too far? Whoa.... Sorry I took your thread so far off track, B. Feel free to move stuff as appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87pathy Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I have this fantasy of building a fully independent rock crawler with about 24" to 36" of travel and active suspension at all four corners.... I have the concept pretty well flushed out in my mind. Although it would be outrageously complex to engineer and rather expensive to build, it would absolutely re-define the activity and blow everything else away. The down side is that it would require all rock crawlers to follow suit to be competitive, which would mean anybody with less than a few hundred thousand dollars or their own engineers and machine shop would not be able to compete, potentially killing the sport. this has been done.. and then they always go back to solid axle.. the reason for this is theat 4wheel Independant suspensions dont tend to side hill very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 You are keeping in mind the SAS will compromise your ride and tire life, right? Or maybe not, depending how screwed up your front end is now... The front end is screwed up ! Most components are wasted, the geometery is off (so the drag and heel over is present) and the front suspension has different spring rates on either side... Fubar'd !!! SAS will only save the truck as I'm not interested in doing a frame swap, or frame off straightening. That would cost as much or more than SAS and I'd still have a stock front end. I have no prob with a little bit more tire wear but I doubt the ride would be worse than it is. No worries mws, and thanks for the input. A little more on track would be nice though... Harb, what I meant to imply is that the Pathy would not be a trail/trailer rig but used in winter and on trips. Yes, I plan to move closer to work, but Cabrio's suck in a storm, why not take the wheeler ?? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Harb, what I meant to imply is that the Pathy would not be a trail/trailer rig but used in winter and on trips. Yes, I plan to move closer to work, but Cabrio's suck in a storm, why not take the wheeler ?? B I figured you wouldn't make it a trailer queen! Just saying that in normal fair-weather day to day use it'll probably sit in the driveway, only coming out for inclement weather, camping/wheeling/shooting. Well, at least thats what I use mine for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Not yet.. but gonna have to check it out! Got any links? S10 IFS Rock Crawler It may not have a hydraulic drive or turbine engine, but its pretty beefy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookie Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Not yet.. but gonna have to check it out! Got any links? Last key to the ultimate crawler: NO driveshafts or differentials. Can you say hydraulic drive? With computerized traction control? Thought you could... And then, just for giggles, how about a little 50 pound turbine engine screaming at 120K rpm or so to power the hydraulic pump? That should cause the Heep boys to drop a deposit in their shorts, ehh? Or is that going too far? Whoa.... Sorry I took your thread so far off track, B. Feel free to move stuff as appropriate. Edit: Opps, just saw Harbingers post Sorry, I don't have any links, but a Google or Pirate board search should point you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87pathy Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 S10 IFS Rock Crawler It may not have a hydraulic drive or turbine engine, but its pretty beefy. That IFS rig is now solid axle. I was specifically talking about hat one. They called it Peanut for its small size. I guess it didn't side hill worth a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordsho90 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 That's why they are completely obsolete on anything but:- 4x4's with cost constraints. Making a long travel IS is expensive (see H1) and/or very wide (again, see H1) - Long haul trucks (18 wheelers) that don't corner much or very hard. - The rear of some automobiles. Again, only because they are cheaper to build and the manufacturers are hoping consumers are willing to accept inferior products to save a few bucks. Ok heres my two cents solid axle F-350's are 86-97 and 99+ F-250's and F-350 Single rear wheel have solid axle Dana 50's while dual rear wheel F-350's have Dana 60 fronts. those vehicales arent cheap and their fronts are highly sought after do to their strength cause of the abilty to hold a higher GAWR of 4800 the dodge power wagon also uses solid so each have there pros and cons and a solid axel truck is alot cheaper to lift and imo as far as heavy duty trucks can u imagine the cost of ifs on one? those trucks are 100 g's new as is but thats just my opinon -alcohol- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Exactly. Ford/Dodge would need to invest engineering time and cough up a CONSIDERABLE amount in tooling to build a better front suspension. So they haven't. With Ford and GM's financial situations, they probably won't/can't. Although GM probably could save quite a bit by borrowing some parts from the H1. WHEN Daimler does, it will be yet another nail in their coffins. Of course, Daimler will have to offer both IFS and SA versions for a while to pacify the techno-phobes in the market, but within a few years, the demand for the old stuff will die away. That's the way it works with mass marketed technology. The SA/IS argument is almost identical to flathead/OH valve deal of the 30's. Or the drum/disk brake deal of the 60's. Or the carburetor/FI deal of the 80's. Or the OHV/OHC cam deal of the 80's. Or the no air bag/air bag deal of the 90's. Or the manual/anti-lock brake deal of the 90's. Some automakers eagerly embrace better technology, some resist. Once they embrace the technology and start mass producing it, the costs plummet. 10 years later, the prices and technology finally become accessible to the home mechanic. What once was considered too expensive and "not needed" eventually becomes the norm. I agree COMPLETELY that a SAS is much easier and far less expensive than a hi-lift long travel IFS today. But I urge you to not confuse that with "better". You gain some things, but lose others. They are a compromise and you should know that and be prepared to accept what you'll lose. Kinda like my Frankenvan. In choosing to make a full size van into our tow monster of choice, I need to accept the compromises. Mainly, difficulty in finding the ideal parts, need to modify so freaking much, and lack of any resale value whatsoever. But I knew this going in and and accept it. I encourage everyone to do what they want, but do it wisely! In Bernard's case, he is - much like I expected . I jumped in 'cause I saw a chance for some meangful dialogue on the pluses and minuses to a SAS for anyone eles considering it. to I look forward to following the progress of his project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) Oh, and B, depending on how much you're willing to drive, we could do pretty much all of the work at my place! Between your machining skills and knowledge, my engineering knowledge, and our combined tool selection and experience, oh my. I've been thinking about a project to pursue after Frankenvan.... Depending on the costs, I'd also lean heavily towards a coil spring version over leafs. Coils just give you a lot more flexibility in geometries and spring rates. If you design it to use Jeep sized coils, you have the ability to change spring rates and ride heights for very little $ or time. Edited March 16, 2006 by mws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordsho90 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) I totaly agree mws and its good that you chimed in so that it give people a chance to make an educated desion instead of jumping in the pool blindly ooo duh btw Bernard good luck Edited March 16, 2006 by fordsho90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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